Building a More Inclusive World: How Dylan Makani is Transforming Assistive Tech
In a world where communication is at the forefront of connection, Dylan Makani is reimagining what accessibility looks like. As the co-founder of Ner Chat, Dylan is making incredible and transformative shifts in assistive technology. Drawing from his unique perspectives and background in neuroscience and investment banking, he has created a platform that has empowered individuals with communication challenges to engage fully in our increasingly digital world.
Ner Chat has really struck a chord with me. It’s a tool that is a significant leap forward in digital inclusion and meets individuals where they are. In this interview, Dylan shares the vision behind Ner Chat, why inclusive technology must be built with and for the people it’s meant to serve and redefines how inclusion can be incorporated more accessible in our society. From advocating for user autonomy to being at the forefront of innovation, his insights offer a look into how assistive tech and AAC (Augmentative and Alternative Communication) can keep up with the pace of modern life.
What inspired you to create Ner Chat? Can you share the story behind its founding and your personal connection to the world of AAC?
Dylan Makani: I was at Vanderbilt, studying neuroscience and MHS. I’ve always had these interests. I’ve done research in the past. I got into this space because I was on the pre-medical track. That’s the path I was taking at Vandy. Most people, as you know, were getting into fields like investment banking, consulting, things like that. Naturally, I fell into that. I started working in an investment banking job. There, I was working on the business side of medicine. I ended up working on a deal related to autism and that got me super interested in the space. Around the same time, I started volunteering with Best Buddies and a local school near Vanderbilt called the Friends Life Center. I made a very close friend who used an AAC device to communicate. I had no idea what that was or what that meant, but that was his primary mode of communication. The issue that we experienced was that every time we stopped seeing each other, especially since I was going back and forth from Nashville to New York, we would lose touch completely. His device restricted him to only in-person robust communication. It put a lot of strain on our relationship, and I always thought that there needed to be a better way.
So, at that school near Vanderbilt, they had classes for groups of AAC users. I was learning from the professors and the employees there about how they felt about the devices. What do they do with it? Do they like it? Do they not? Volunteering in these classes, I saw so many issues with the current devices. They kind of look outdated. The software is not intuitive to you and I. I thought to myself, “Wow. There are definitely ways to make this better.” So, I went to one of my close friends from high school, Scott Soifer, who is super smart and had a job working at Google. I said to him that I had this idea. It’s a really cool space. Are you interested in working with me? He was like, yeah let’s do it. We built a product that we launched into that school and they continue to use it to this day. We knew that there was an abundance of opportunity here to improve autonomy and independence for this population that really started from the AAC side of things. Over time, we decided to branch out and exit that space. We are doing a lot more cool things for this field in the tech world.
Gabi Barrocas: That must have been so fulfilling to see the community you worked with use your product. That was probably an amazing feeling.
Dylan Makani: Yeah, exactly. I think that’s probably the best thing about working in this space. You get to see that you built something that people actually use and rely on.
Gabi Barrocas: Did you think that when you and your friend from Google began to work on this idea that it would become what it has grown to be now?
Dylan Makani: Probably not. I would say that I had a very big and grand vision. That is always what I see for myself, but I didn’t know that it would become what it is now. The idea has shifted so many times as we’ve spoken to more people and organizations involved. There is no way I could have predicted what could have happened.
Traditional AAC devices often isolate users from mainstream communication platforms. How did you identify this as the key issue to tackle, and what made you believe it could be changed?
Dylan Makani: So, when Scott and I started off, we thought of how we can create the next generation of AAC. I ended up working in that fashion a lot. The first product we launched at that school was the learning management platform. So, what does that mean? We had this issue where the classroom would have ten people with different software. I remember distinctly one time we were doing a Halloween-themed activity. Every five minutes we had to stop the class because someone didn’t have a specific icon programmed or something like that. It was taking away so much from the learning and the experience we were having. I thought to myself, can we just make this cloud based?
So, we made this platform where everyone would have the same app that they could customize to their needs, but the teacher could also make one board that would be shared automatically to each person’s devices. Now they use it on what’s called an active board in front of the class, so when people submit responses, they can see the audio, visual, and their photo on the screen. It becomes a lot more engaging and interactive. That was kind of where we started, but then I realized we wanted to also break that isolation barrier you mentioned, so we split off with two-way messaging. Can I allow you to use your AAC device to message within our app? This worked. It worked pretty well. But then the issue became that two people need the same app in order to message and that in itself is a little isolating. So, we said, let’s take this to the next level and let’s embed it as a keyboard. Then you could use it in any app you wanted, and that product is called Leaf. That’s where Leaf developed. It’s a way to take your symbol board on your phone so that you could text with it or use applications like Snapchat or Instagram or whatever your family group chat is on. It’s about acting with the words that make sense to you. The reaction has been very positive for that so I’m happy we did it.
Gabi Barrocas: Wow. That’s awesome. Did you have to work with individual companies to use the keyboard or is it just an Apple-based program?
Dylan Makani: It’s just an Apple-based keyboard. We had to work and get through Apple’s review process which was a little difficult. There was no real collaboration with other companies, it was more like an independent thing we decided to run on our own.
What has the feedback been like from early neurodiverse users? Have there been any particularly powerful stories from someone whose life has been impacted by Ner Chat?
Dylan Makani: So, we released that application Leaf at the end of August. Right when we released it, we put it in a few forums, like speech pathology forums and neurodiversity forums and the outburst was awesome. People were commenting, resharing, and getting it out there. One of the places I put it in, I got like 12,000 views out of a group of 30,000 people. That was probably the highest engagement we’ve seen from that group in history. We were very proud of what happened. We got so many DMs and emails that showed a lot to what the product was doing because while we have been looking for something like this for a while, we haven’t been able to find it. It was a combination of a lot of AAC users reaching out and saying thank you and a lot of providers, speech pathologists, and educators would respond saying how excited they were to start recommending this.
I would say one really cool thing that I heard was kind of organic because I’m trying my best to engage more and more on social media. There’s a mom and her child who posted a video of them searching up one of their favorite movies on Netflix and I thought that was a really nice touch.
Gabi Barrocas: That’s really cool. I’m sure you hear these things all the time. Off topic, my family has this acronym called TMOJ, which stands for tiny moment of joy. It means that the small moments are truly what makes you the happiest. It’s like the tiny moments of just going to help at a school or receiving one of these emails that is truly the most fulfilling.
Dylan Makani: Yeah, when you get one of those emails it’s the best. It makes your day.
What does “true inclusion” look like to you, and how does Ner Chat push toward that ideal?
Dylan Makani: I think that in my context, inclusion is all about communication. So, being able to allow everyone to use the words and modalities that they find most useful or most effective for themselves. That’s why there is so much emphasis, especially in what we do, to add accessibility features and add different types of ways in which you can interact with the board and customize different things because no two people are the same. You must be able to not push the one size fits all solutions but something that’s more robust and something that can be adapted to who you are. I think that inclusion really goes to this idea of availability of options and being able to just have as many options as possible available so that we can tailor and be very custom for specific people for what makes them the happiest or what’s the most effective for them.
You also have two sub-brands: Glint and Leaf. Can you explain what they are, who they’re for, and how they complement Ner Chat’s mission?
Dylan Makani: Glint is actually a very new platform that we’ve been working on internally. We just kind of released that on the website very recently and we are starting to kind of showcase it more. We created Glint with a few school districts in their speech and hearing departments. The reason why actually links very closely to the inclusivity piece. We do two main things with Glint. Glint is an AI powered platform that automates visual learning material. What that means is you can talk to it or type in a request and within seconds, it can make custom communication boards with symbols. It can make activities, templates, and so many other things that you may use as a provider or an educator. It’s pretty much made for visual learning. I feel like I’m a visual learner and the stat that is out there is that 60% of people are visual learners. By automating this learning material creation, we could save time for the educators who usually spend hours a week on custom making these types of activities and shorten that so they can actually focus on things that matter more to them, like one-on-one time with a student. Glint has been a very interesting path and the real thing to highlight there is that it is so customizable because we use AI. I don’t like the term AI, because AI means something different to everyone, so I say, it’s an automation platform. So you could tell it that you want a ball. You could also tell it what color the ball is. It is so smart that it can learn and take even specific feedback to change an existing image.
We have a symbol set we license that’s very known in AAC. It’s called the Symbolstix set and pretty much we can manipulate preexisting images and even Google images and custom make it for a user. It’s not one size fits all. It’s really adaptive. If you could do that in the past, think about how much time people spend on other platforms to custom make images and change individual colors but this does it for you.
Gabi Barrocas: That’s amazing. Have you gone and seen kids working with your platform in person?
Dylan Makani: Yeah, so I would say for Leaf definitely much more because it’s been out for longer, but right now it is an exciting time, because Glint is now getting picked up by districts which is awesome. It’s also getting picked up by SLP firms. We’re beginning now the period of time where I call proof of concept where we are hearing from the providers who are giving us feedback. That helps us improve where we are.
Gabi Barrocas: Are most of the districts you are working with based in New York?
Dylan Makani: No actually. It’s really interesting. There’s one in Tennessee that we are talking with and a few outside of New York as well. It’s hard to break into New York to help. We’re trying our best, but it’s really about trying to find forward thinking early adopters who are interested in efficiency, personalization, and reducing provider burnout.
Gabi Barrocas: It would be interesting to see the long-term trajectory of incorporating Leaf or your general mission in a district or a school of some sort and see the five- or ten-year effects. That would be really interesting to see in the next couple of years.
Dylan Makani: Believe it or not, we hopefully are getting to be starting some of the projects with Vanderbilt. Some of the centers there are really awesome. We are focused on doing more of that research with providers and students themselves to figure out how we are helping with all of the standards or maybe standards of a district that have certain thresholds they want their students to be at. We are tracking insights to provide educators with information on for example, here is how we help with users use of words or here is how we help with nouns to provide the stats and metrics to show that this is actually effective.
Gabi Barrocas: That would be really helpful in proving efficiency. Regarding incorporating your program into school districts, are you mainly focused on entering neurodiverse programs or are you working with mainstream school systems as well?
Dylan Makani: So, right now we are just focused on the neurodiversity space because that’s where we started. That’s just more of the people I know and in my community. That’s our foothold but as we always say, there is always room to grow and improve.
What has building Ner Chat taught you about communication, accessibility, or even yourself?
Dylan Makani: I’ve definitely learned that communication is never one size fits all. Regarding accessibility, I think you need to always provide so many options and be on the cutting edge of tech to be able to provide accessible options. I find that going to conferences and speaking to people in the space always keeps you on your toes. It’s about understanding all the different things that exist that help to bring accessibility. I think about myself, it has taught me a very high degree of patience to be working in this space. When you work with a lot of individuals, you really need to listen more than you talk. A lot of time, it’s just listening and talking to AAC users, talking to providers, talking to educators, and understanding their day to day lives. I’m not a provider myself and so I just know about it because I talk to providers and users every day. It’s more of learning to listen that I’ve really gained from working on this project.
What’s next for Ner Chat? Are there any exciting updates, expansions, or dreams on the horizon?
Dylan Makani: So, we are always trying to grow Leaf. I’m trying to push that as much as possible, especially the social media side of things just to get the word out there, especially because that’s really the best way to help the most people. Glint, has so much potential to transform how special educators and therapists create visual learning material. We are selectively working with districts and organizations to work with us. We also have a healthcare side of things that we are working on as well. What that means is we are working toward tele-health accessibilities. So, think about all the times that someone who may not be able to communicate or has unique communication needs gets onto a tele-health appointment. We now have a Zoom integration and we integrate into multiple video-conferencing platforms. We have what we call an active board. It’s a two-way symbol board that allows you to communicate and we are hoping to work with some state organizations and provider organizations and hospitals to help with their two-way communication in a lot of different ways. I think there are a lot of exciting things going on. It’s about finding those interested first-movers who are attuned to the certain issues that exist in the field and who are excited about new technology.
Gabi Barrocas: Wow. That would be awesome if you could really go into the tele-health space, especially in pediatric care.
Dylan Makani: Do you want to see something cool too?
[Dylan activates the Ner Chat platform on the Zoom conference call.]
Dylan Makani: You can see the two-way communication where both of us can click and interact.
Gabi Barrocas: So, if I don’t have the app and we are on a Zoom call, you can just invite me and I immediately have access to the tool?
Dylan Makani: Exactly. You don’t need to have the app to access it. The app is mostly for Leaf if you were trying to use it as a day to day communication tool. For example, if we work with a provider organization and they have tele-health appointments, we can program this, set it up, customize this for the user, and then when they join the zoom, there is a customized communication board in front of them.
Gabi Barrocas: If I wanted to add more icons, how would I do that? Would it be on your end or the user end?
Dylan Makani: The provider end will have more options and tools but if you were interested in editing icons, you could edit it on the app itself or on the website. Is there any topic that comes to mind as an example I could show you?
Gabi Barrocas: Yeah, so I guess what if you are teaching math in school or something.
Dylan Makani: All right, let’s put math in and see what it gives us. This is Glint that I’m using for you now.
[Math icons such as “Divide” and “Subtract” come onto the screen with accompanying pictures.]
Dylan Makani: Now, obviously if you give more information or you tell the system more things, it will give a better, more detailed response. There are so many different types of materials that we build with Glint. There are templates that you can use to ask the system for specific boards. For example, you can type in allergies and a whole board shows up.
Gabi Barrocas: What if the user wants to access more vocabulary and can’t express that?
Dylan Makani: Then they always have the option to access the app if they want to always. That’ll be via an app download but mostly we can rely on providers because for example, if it’s in a tele-health appointment or in a different educational context, there is someone there who hopefully can advocate for the individual.
Gabi Barrocas: That’s really cool. Would you consider doing anything with sign language on the platform?
Dylan Makani: That’s super interesting. I think so. Two things on that, one we have a sign language image on this so if you look up a word and sign language you would actually have the sign. We also spoke about doing something that’s more like live transcription for sign language but that’s a bit more down the path.
Gabi Barrocas: I volunteer at a preschool for kids with autism and they use so many forms of communication. They have AAC devices but they also encourage the use of physical pictures that a kid can hold up to signal some form of communication. For example, if a kid wants to go on the slide, he has to hand me the picture of the slide. They also incorporate sign language to encourage a child to ask for more of something or if they want something to stop.
Dylan Makani: I love that. It’s so important to have different modalities. Not only on the digital side of things like how this is but also something you can print out and make it low tech. Anytime you make something in Glint, you also have the option to print it out and create a type of hand-out sheet for the users.
Gabi Barrocas: That’s really cool. Along those lines, if a user isn’t knowledgeable on how to use an AAC device, is that the role or the responsibility of the provider to teach?
Dylan Makani: We always try to assume AAC competence, because at the end of the day when you first get introduced to AAC it’s really hard. It takes at least 60 to 80 hours to gain competence with an AAC device because of how complicated it is. When I was first getting introduced to this, it required many sessions and many instructions to really understand the pathways. and that’s why there’s also so many different types of AAC platforms. So that’s why we ourselves don’t try to get in that space. It’s like every day there is a new hiccup. and so, there’s a lot of point solutions that exist out there, and what that means is as providers, providers have to go in and try the different platforms for some months to see. It’s called feature matching. We try to see if users respond well to this or respond well to that. We try our best to move away from ACC for that. We just try to be simple, like a format that’s just visual based. So regarding your question, yeah, people need to learn AAC. It requires getting repetition in so that you could use it more effectively.
Gabi Barrocas: Yeah. I guess kind of like what you were saying, has there been a lot of competition in this space or is there not?
Dylan Makani: There’s a lot of reasons why we moved away from being an AAC platform. For us initially we thought that was where there was opportunity, but then I realized that there’s a lot of barriers to entry to get into AAC. The reason why is because people are trained on it. People have been using AAC apps for over 20 years plus now. There’s research published about that. The providers are used to them, and they just have so many accessibility tools. We saw that there’s no real purpose here to compete but just do a marginally better job. Because at the end of the day, there’s never going to be one AAC platform that everyone’s going to use because everyone’s different. Everyone likes different things, so they learn from different people. So, it was never going to be that way. I focused on the places that we could fill in the gaps that would really help bring autonomy and independence to our communities. So that’s where I saw Leaf come in with inclusion and Glint is really adaptive images that we can give.
Gabi Barrocas: That’s awesome. Have you seen the friend you mentioned earlier in the zoom use the platform?
Dylan Makani: I have. I think that was probably the most rewarding part of everything that I’ve done. It really has come full circle.
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